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8,649
5,113
maungaturoto
Experience
Commercial
But any reasons for why the PPBK exponents feel that way about scientists - and science?
anti-social, anti-establishment ?? lack of training, lack of wanting to be trained.

but also i think a big part of it is what Randy Oliver wrote about people reacting to mite resistance. (i shall see if i can find the exact quote).
 
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8,649
5,113
maungaturoto
Experience
Commercial
anti-social, anti-establishment ?? lack of training, lack of wanting to be trained.

but also i think a big part of it is what Randy Oliver wrote about people reacting to mite resistance. (i shall see if i can find the exact quote).
"
Our reaction to it reminds me of the five stages of dealing with trauma (greatly paraphrased from Kubler-Ross 1997):

Stage 1: Denial (this isn’t happening to me! There can’t be mites on my bees.)

Stage 2: Anger (You little hive-killing buggers—I’m gonna obliterate you with my Silver Bullet!)

Stage 3: Bargaining (Apistan’s not working any more—please give me another Silver Bullet!)

Stage 4: Depression (It’s just too danged hard to keep bees anymore!)

Stage 5: Acceptance (I accept the mite as a formidable enemy that I’ve got to learn to live with)

After we’ve passed through these five stages, we have a chance at Recovery, which in this case, is coexistence with the mite, with bees bred for handling the mite on their own."


in my experience the above is bang on.
 
283
393
Bay of Plenty
Experience
Commercial
Yes, science has some established processes . . . .but 'of the establishment' ? It must be the white coats.
Don't you know John, you all controlled and payed by Big Pharma, unlike the 'real' scientist who are mixing lotions and potions with a bit of flora and getting peer reviewed on facebook, insta and tik tok.
Now if you were to dress in a bikini and take a selfie down at the beach holding a bee and a tree leaf we would see you truly are a scientist 'for the people'
 
178
241
Gisborne Tairawhiti
Experience
Researcher
Don't you know John, you all controlled and payed by Big Pharma
I wish, Dennis! Even little Pharma would do me. . . .

Now if you were to dress in a bikini and take a selfie down at the beach holding a bee and a tree leaf we would see you truly are a scientist 'for the people'
You would certainly see me as *something* . ..I just don't know what !
 
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397
293
Mid Canterbury
Experience
Semi Commercial
Now if you were to dress in a bikini and take a selfie down at the beach holding a bee and a tree leaf we would see you truly are a scientist 'for the people'
I would like some funding, so I could go and do a varroa count on a warm Pacific reef! Not fussy which reef, as long as it's got interesting stuff to look at and a good nearby bar and fish restaurant. I could even run to an alcoholic varroa wash count in the bar!
 
283
393
Bay of Plenty
Experience
Commercial
I would like some funding, so I could go and do a varroa count on a warm Pacific reef! Not fussy which reef, as long as it's got interesting stuff to look at and a good nearby bar and fish restaurant. I could even run to an alcoholic varroa wash count in the bar!
Dont wast the booze on the varroa, just drink enough that you only have to breath on the bees and varroa fall off
 
397
293
Mid Canterbury
Experience
Semi Commercial
Dont wast the booze on the varroa, just drink enough that you only have to breath on the bees and varroa fall off
OK - Will take suggestion on board - Is this the opinion of practised experience? That will save me having to sieve the varroa through my teeth. I guess I could also throw the Sistema varroa counter container out on the reef!
 

Bron

Staff member
2,932
3,130
Gisborne
Experience
Commercial
One of the things I’ve never understood is why it’s okay not to have to inspect a number of frames every time a hive is opened or before moving gear from one hive to another, or before they are moved from one place to another, such as pollination or into Manuka or new apiaries, as a legal requirement. I know most beekeepers do this, but legally they don’t have to. If you don’t look, you don’t find.
 

NickWallingford

BOP Club
229
338
Tauranga
Experience
Retired
The Govt is not really inclined to regulate something such as AFB by identifying prescriptive techniques. Rather, the regulation relates to some sort of 'breakdown' in a method of keeping bees to avoid AFB. Beekeepers should be free to use whatever methods they choose, so long as it doesn't contribute to the continuing spread of AFB. *That* is what we had to write the PMS (now PMP) around.

But 'best practice'??? Something entirely different. And, depending on your beekeeping circumstance, may very well include the habits that you refer to, along with many others. My personal favourite as a tool that can help to eliminate AFB? Quarantines of one type or another - hive, apiary or area... But other than possible inclusion as a DECA requirement, based on the personal circumstance? Not generally a 'legal' thing.

But a *good* thing? You bet...

If the people who have a problem (1) acknowledge they have a problem and (2) know of the tools that can be used to clean it up and (3) use them strategically and effectively, they can farm their way out of an AFB outbreak. I would like to hope there is sufficient support to do so. They *can* make up the losses that AFB can cause. But it isn't an easy thing to 'legislate' - people must want to participate in the process, individually and ultimately collectively...
 
10
18
Hamilton
Experience
Hobbyist
We just can't have compensation for AFB because whatever you subsidize, you get more of.

At this time there is a cost to having the disease and that should be an incentive to control it.
Compensation is possible if the circumstances of getting AFB can be found conclusively. Early last year my hives were contaminated with AFB, and I knew exactly where it came from. I took the beekeeper to the Disputes Tribunal, and won.
The full story was published in the Sept issue of Apiarists Advocate.
During the Disputes Tribunal Hearing, the ex-commercial beekeeper who contaminated my hives stated, on record, that most commercial beekeepers only inspect 1-2 frames for AFB, per hive, at the most. That is what he always did, even though we all know the rules are inspecting EVERY frame. If you only inspect 1-2 frames, of course you are going to add to the problem for yourself and everyone around you.
He ended up losing 80% of his hives and his DECA.
Personally he should have been banned from keeping bees.
But it is possible to get compensation for losses, if your own practices are strict, and you can prove duty of care has been breeched by another beekeeper.
Is the compensation you are referring to from a collective fund?
 
8,649
5,113
maungaturoto
Experience
Commercial
and you can prove duty of care has been breeched by another beekeeper.
thats the hard part.
Personally he should have been banned from keeping bees.
agreed.
a lot of the people that cause the problem don't learn and become good beekeepers. AFB is a beekeeper problem rather than a bee problem. so there is a good case for just outright banning these people from beekeeping.
 
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NickWallingford

BOP Club
229
338
Tauranga
Experience
Retired
Compensation is possible if the circumstances of getting AFB can be found conclusively.
When a Pest Management Plan is created, it has to address the issue of compensation for loss due to the actions of the PMP. That is, a plan *could* include (presumably the use of levy money) to compensate a bkpr for the loss of destroying an infected hive. That form of compensation was not included - for a range of good reasons - in the PMP. In your case, that identification of responsibility was quite tenacious and admirable. I think you did a good job of sleuthing!
 
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Alastair

Founder Member
Platinum
8,419
9,684
Auckland
Experience
Semi Commercial
Is the compensation you are referring to from a collective fund?

I'll assume that question is directed at me?

My answer would have to be that I was not referring to any compensation in particular. as I don't think there should be any compensation.

But since you think there is justification for compensation. I would direct your question back to you.

Is the compensation you refer to from a collective fund?
 
10
18
Hamilton
Experience
Hobbyist
I'll assume that question is directed at me?

My answer would have to be that I was not referring to any compensation in particular. as I don't think there should be any compensation.

But since you think there is justification for compensation. I would direct your question back to you.

Is the compensation you refer to from a collective fund?
Looking back over the posts, I can't find why I asked that question at the end of my post. I may have been enquiring about a 'possible fund' if that route was ever considered further.
The compensation I got was from the specific beekeeper who brought honey onto my property for extraction, didn't follow very clear and strict rules about wrapping supers, and had been negligent in his beekeeping practices. His honey was tested with a very high AFB spore count taken from a random 50g sample from 300kg extracted. Subsequent AP2 inspections on multiple sites found AFB in 80% of his hives. During the disputes hearing, there was confusion by him between having either 15 hives, or 200, or something in between, as he wouldn't commit to a number. I also caught him selling infected honey extracted at my facility, under the registered number of another extraction facility. He only bottled about 50kg in my facility, and took 250kg away in buckets which he bottled himself.
A clear case of someone who should not be keeping bees, and should have been properly prosecuted by MPI.
The whole story is in the Apiarists Advocate emagazine. I found a way to get full compensation for all my losses through the courts.
 


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