Oh you know.... meeting new people....🤠.... fingering new and interesting stuff .... cosying up at the free coffee.
AFB plan review
- Thread starter John B
- Start date
Dennis
I have acknowledged what has changed, a lot of of those changes started 10 or so years ago. Some are good some are not so good.
Hopefully Dennis you can acknowledge that what I am doing/saying is to promote an open and transparent governance process that all beekeepers can participate in. Even the Ombudsman seems to think the transparency of the AFB PMP needs investigating.
Please come and have a proper conversation about my concerns ideas Dennis.
As you know Steve the ombudsman is not always right, we have dealt with a situation between two parties where the ombudsman said any information about that situation should be given to the parties involved. We argued that no, there is a privacy of persons involved that is not needed for the dispute. If we just go with the ombudsman suggestion, that would mean that anyone can ask for any information about any levy payer and we would have to give it, all their info about where their sites are how many hives etc etc. So we have to spend time on lawyers to challenge the ombudsman (they aren't GOD) as they too get it wrong. We do take on their suggestions to see if there is somethings we can/have to do better, but we ain't going to give anyone's info because someone is going on a fishing exercise trying to find something to go, gotcha. Any levy payer is allowed to ask for an OIA, but be specific in what you are wanting to know, and not a catchall for everything.
As to your concerns, I think your main concern is you don't like APINZ, in which case you can join and put your name to be on the board and change from within that you think is needed. You could also put your name forward to be on the AFB board when elections come around.
As to your suggestion about having two govt people on the board and maybe 3 beekeepers, we already have that now, as to governance training, yes more money could be spent on that, but at this time because governance training can run into the $10000s is not high on the list at this time. But we have people who have had governance training that we call upon for advice.
Sometimes as you know that some people make OIA claims and as they don't get their pet wish, they take that as meaning there is something wrong with an organization.
But as I said before the timing is good for you now to make submissions to the plan, airing things just on here they may not make it into the submissions.
Many have a difficulty separating operational from governance. Would more beekeepers be interested in the operational/procedural side of the plan, rather than the governance (that the plan is being carried out as per, and the required resources are available)? I would guess yes.
I still don’t understand what the governance issues are that tou have issues with @StephenB
The main issues is that levy payers have no input into the governance of the AFB PMP
Api NZ. has total control of the AFB PMP They dont have an industry mandate to be in this position!
I have used bold to to ensure that the point is clear.
Dennis
The two government/MPI people are advisors that the committee can choose remove or ignore, as you know. Just a reminder APINZ exec is the responsible for the PMP not the sub committee
As for joining Api NZ I pay a levy to the AFB PMP why do I have to pay more to ApiNZ to have input into the AFB PMP governance , Scamming the levy payers comes to mind.
As you know Dennis, your the lawyers advice has been lacking and often over turned on OIA matters.
Dennis are you offering to sponsor me to be a board member of the AFB PMP ?
Governance training does not cost $10 000s this is a misleading statement.
All good competent governance people/ scientist/managers understand the value of ongoing professional training/development brings to an organization. Really if you dont get that the mind can only wonder.
We have just seen a 25% increase in levy's. I think revenue is creeping towards $1 000 000 or more . I think its only reasonable that the levy payers have competent people in charge
Even the RMP holders are required to have some professional development to be called competent RMP operators
You stated that the AFB PMP board are elected. Another misleading statement. They are solely appointed by ApiNZ
Last edited:
Apiculture NZ will never answer this question, no matter how many times it is asked - and I think your point in bold is the reason:
How many direct paying members does API-NZ consist of - explicitly excluding counting the members of clubs individually, rather counting a club as one single member?
my guess is in the low hundreds, a trivial percentage of new zealand beekeepers.
The refusal to answer this simple question, and hiding behind smoke and mirrors instead, including claiming high membership numbers by, e.g., claiming 400 members each time a club gets a single club membership, and that club contains 400 members, is at the heart of my distrust for the organisation.
It's a shame, there are very good people involved with and associated with API-NZ, and this is not meant as an attack on people such as you Dennis
Hang on, you were suggesting the governance was poor. And now you’re saying ApiNZ don’t have a mandate? Which brings up again, is your issue really with the AFB PMP ? Or with ApiNZ?
Where are the examples of poor governance? (I have used bold to ensure that the point is clear)
And if it’s not ApiNZ then who *does* have the mandate to run the PMP? Or are you going to suggest that illegal obligations of beeks be scrapped altogether (one of the survey options to be fair).
I'm kinda lost.
I've listened to Stephens critisisms for several years, most of them are baseless.
I don't personally think there is a problem. But let's just imagine there is, what I've never heard from you Stephen is your solution.
What is it? Spit it out. Or, will you just constantly sling mud from the sidelines?
Then if you can identify a real problem and propose a real solution, I am sure the AFBPMP will be very pleased to hear it. In fact they have just emailed everyone seeking new ideas, they want people to talk to them, they do try to please as many people as they can, I am sure you know that.
Issue is the old saying in politics, you can please most of the people most of the time, you can not please all the people all the time.
Social media such as this gives the small minority who are never pleased all the time, a medium to perpetually stir the pot and make it appear there are dreadful plots afoot, when there are not. All that is really going on is a bunch of very hard working people trying to do the best job they can.
I've listened to Stephens critisisms for several years, most of them are baseless.
I don't personally think there is a problem. But let's just imagine there is, what I've never heard from you Stephen is your solution.
What is it? Spit it out. Or, will you just constantly sling mud from the sidelines?
Then if you can identify a real problem and propose a real solution, I am sure the AFBPMP will be very pleased to hear it. In fact they have just emailed everyone seeking new ideas, they want people to talk to them, they do try to please as many people as they can, I am sure you know that.
Issue is the old saying in politics, you can please most of the people most of the time, you can not please all the people all the time.
Social media such as this gives the small minority who are never pleased all the time, a medium to perpetually stir the pot and make it appear there are dreadful plots afoot, when there are not. All that is really going on is a bunch of very hard working people trying to do the best job they can.
Last edited:
WOULD YAH ALL QUIT YER BITCHING AND DO SOMETHING ....[ I use caps because I cant find the bold]
When reading Dennis answer above he talks about OIA requests for governance materiel that has personnel information in it. Well Basic 101 of governance is operations and governance dont mix.
Quick search on google
"Good governance has 8 major attributes. It is participatory, consensus oriented, accountable, transparent, responsive, effective and efficient, equitable and inclusive, and follows the rule of law"
Thats all I ask for
"Good governance has 8 major attributes. It is participatory, consensus oriented, accountable, transparent, responsive, effective and efficient, equitable and inclusive, and follows the rule of law"
Thats all I ask for
A Democratic method of selecting board members would be a lot fairer but however they are selected it would not necessarily be any better and might end up being considerably worse. A lot of people moan that we don't seem to be getting any closer to eradication. Frankly I think they are doing a wonderful job on keeping a lid on AFB numbers given the huge numbers of new and very often incompetent beekeepers out there. Watch for a big jump in numbers next autumn. There are tens of thousands of dead hives out there and finding AFB is a lot easier in a live hive than it is in a hive that has died from something else but still has AFB.
Hives are being left to die from varroa because people can't afford to treat them.
Beekeepers are struggling to survive because of low honey prices and poor sales.
Corners are going to be cut .
While I will still continue to push for a more democratic system I will continue to support the current board. They are doing a good job and we need them. The next couple of years have the potential to be a huge CF with PMS and PPB leading to multiplying and undetected AFB.
In the past 50 years I have seen this kind of thing several times . It's about to get ugly and we are about to find out just how good our current team is and I think they are up to the challenge.
Hives are being left to die from varroa because people can't afford to treat them.
Beekeepers are struggling to survive because of low honey prices and poor sales.
Corners are going to be cut .
While I will still continue to push for a more democratic system I will continue to support the current board. They are doing a good job and we need them. The next couple of years have the potential to be a huge CF with PMS and PPB leading to multiplying and undetected AFB.
In the past 50 years I have seen this kind of thing several times . It's about to get ugly and we are about to find out just how good our current team is and I think they are up to the challenge.
And if your problem is inabilty to give input, your worries are over.
They are seeking input now.
Just be aware that with around nine thousand beekeepers to respond to, they can not do every thing that every beekeeper wants. But like I said before, they do try their best. Some suggestions they recieve are workable, some less so.
They are seeking input now.
Just be aware that with around nine thousand beekeepers to respond to, they can not do every thing that every beekeeper wants. But like I said before, they do try their best. Some suggestions they recieve are workable, some less so.
There is no suggestion in the Biosecurity Act that the Mgmt Agency for a PMP must have an 'industry mandate'. The Mgmt Agency is selected by the Minister based on confidence that the agency can deliver the actions expected of it by the PMP. There is no form of 'voting' relating to selecting the agency or the people who serve on it. There is no expectation that the Mgmt Agency be 'popular' or 'representative' of the industry involved. And remember, *any* organisation can put forward a proposal for a PMP. The legislation spells out the process quite clearly. When we were first setting it all up, we had a bit of fear the we might have an 'unfriendly PMP' put forward by some (non-beekeeping) group. The Mgmt Agency does not require a mandate from the industry...
Alsadair I have re-posted post number 23 as you have mentioned that you can not find it
"I would set up a board of 5 people. 2 would be government appointments. These appointments would professional governance people and one would be the chairmen.
The other 3 would come from the beekeeping industry. There would be a rotation system in place. There would be mandatory governance training. May be the newbies would attend board meetings for 12 months for training before there term starts
Maybe a rotation of 3 years with re-election allowed only once. total term 6 years plus one year as a trainee
Election held once a year voters from registered levy payers. 1 vote for every 500 hives owned "
This gives all beekeepers a say,
The appointees keep the governance process on track
"I would set up a board of 5 people. 2 would be government appointments. These appointments would professional governance people and one would be the chairmen.
The other 3 would come from the beekeeping industry. There would be a rotation system in place. There would be mandatory governance training. May be the newbies would attend board meetings for 12 months for training before there term starts
Maybe a rotation of 3 years with re-election allowed only once. total term 6 years plus one year as a trainee
Election held once a year voters from registered levy payers. 1 vote for every 500 hives owned "
This gives all beekeepers a say,
The appointees keep the governance process on track
What you say is mostly correct and I dont like it
But the important bit you miss is that when it was set up it was compulsory membership of the NBA . As you and Dennis know that the mandate was removed by the beekeepers when compulsory membership of the NBA was abolished.
Also remember that the use of the PMP laws requires the affected parties to propose a PMP. The government didn't just come up with the plan the Beekeepers did. So the beekeepers can force a change. And as Dennis has pointed out we can also ask for it to be done away with.