Boutelje extractor warning

[Grant]

Do you also earth your stainless steel bench top ?

Yes in the UK that would be earth bonded, as would the copper pipes carrying the water !!! Unless it was in an area of earth free bonding, but then everything would be at the same potential.

Interesting take on the rules.
I think from what you have described a tad over reaction

Double insulation protects the user of the appliance from an electrical shock by preventing any possibility of the external casing becoming live (the live wire can not touch the casing even if wires inside become loose), thus eliminating the need for an earth connection. The two layers of insulation are:

• First insulation: Insulating electrical cable from the internal component of the appliance.
• Second insulation: Insulating internal metal part which could become live from the external casing.

It sounds like the 2nd insulation is not sufficient in this case.

However, according to UK electrical regs you MUST NEVER earth a double insulated appliance.



I have no idea how these translate to NZ regs as I have not done the qualification cross over here.

 

[StephenB]

Just off the top of my head some differences between UK and NZ
We use a different earthing system. In NZ we drive earth stakes wheres in the UK the earth comes in with the mains. To the consumer not much difference. The UK uses 13amp fused plugs. This is mainly due to the use of ring circuits for power outlets. NZ uses radial circuits

You only need to earth a metal sink or shower tray if copper pipes are used. Most modern houses use plastic pipes

RCDs are mandated in domestic installations (not required in commercial or industrial) not sure what the current UK rules are

 

[tristan]

A high inertia load such as a spin float, extractor or any other machine running at high speed that has a bit of weight behind it can take a long time to ramp down if the power is turned off. If the machine is on fire it needs to be stopped fast. Using mechanical breaks to stop the machine dead can cause structural damage. Using the dynamic brake is the best way

If the fire is an electrical fire(ie short circuit or overload) the circuit electrical protection will cut the electrical supply. As machines get bigger temperature sensors are used to monitor the likes of bearing temps, winding temps etc.

Many large industrial switch boards are fitted with arc flash sensors and ultra sensitive smoke detectors

This all costs money. For the value of a spin float or extractor all the extra protection is not needed.

Another good braking system is DC injection breaking.

well i fitted the extra earth while having my morning coffee. so that little job is done.

interesting that one extractor has the e-stop kill the power while the other has it trip the VSD.

with the spin float i have yet to go through and check everything. originally the brake resistor was not even set which caused issues.
i suspect the deceleration is not well set but i have not checked it yet. it takes a long time to stop. i'm still going through the manual as that vsd is a lot different to the others.

but there is a practical issue to keep in mind.
when things go wrong you want to be able to hit the button and get out of there.
you don't want to stay and wait for it to stop before turning the power off.
especially as the spin float gets the shakes when slowing down and the stand is rather flimsy built.

dc braking works well, something i added to the extractors programming and got rid of the "throw it in reverse" hack braking setup.

 

[Jamo]

Anything that could become live should be earthed and considering the number of wires in many modern machines that could come loose with vibration and movement and how easy it is to earth things it really should be done. An old sparky mate once told me that the only wire that you had to get right was the green one.

 

[Maggie]

Just off the top of my head some differences between UK and NZ
We use a different earthing system. In NZ we drive earth stakes wheres in the UK the earth comes in with the mains. To the consumer not much difference. The UK uses 13amp fused plugs. This is mainly due to the use of ring circuits for power outlets. NZ uses radial circuits

You only need to earth a metal sink or shower tray if copper pipes are used. Most modern houses use plastic pipes

RCDs are mandated in domestic installations (not required in commercial or industrial) not sure what the current UK rules are

R U an electrician or electrical engineer?

 

[Morporks]

R U an electrician or electrical engineer?

yep

Should have replied Stephen is a electrical worker just to be clear

Me I am a beekeeper

 

[tristan]

i'm the fix everything guy who has to make the stuff actually work.

 

[tristan]

i'm the fix everything guy who has to make the stuff actually work.

@Grant @Trevor Gillbanks by god i wish i was joking.

 

[Hector Wong]

i'm the fix everything guy who has to make the stuff actually work.

If there weren't guys like you stuff wouldn't be made better and there wouldn't be new inventions.

 

[StephenB]

Its been a busy week
Just pulled the spin float heat exchangers out for its annual servicing

 

[StephenB]

next weeks job change the oil in the air compressor for the pricker

 

[yesbut]

Is that honey or oil refinery ?

 

[StephenB]

Is that honey or oil refinery ?

urea plant

 

[James]

When you done that perhaps you could come have a look at Stella's Detroit 60 series heart..
She got sick the other day.
The computer told her to go into limp mode, citing a fuel pump issue.
Fixed all that, but she's still limping.

I'm wondering if there's a short in the wiring loom ?

 

[yesbut]

Dead mouse in the fuel tank vent ?

 

[tristan]

When you done that perhaps you could come have a look at Stella's Detroit 60 series heart..
She got sick the other day.
The computer told her to go into limp mode, citing a fuel pump issue.
Fixed all that, but she's still limping.

I'm wondering if there's a short in the wiring loom ?

whats the codes?
have you got the manual that explains the codes?

modern engines are really helpful in diagnosing faults.

 

[Boutelje Electrician]

tomorrows small job is to fit an earth lead to the Boutelje extractor.
there is no earth lead from the body to earth, so the whole body can become live posing major health risk.

and yes i tested it with a meter.
the older one got away with it because it connects through the bearing and it has a cast alloy bearing housing.
however the newer one has a plastic bearing housing.
the other connection point is through the little torque reaction plate. but as thats not actually bolted down (it wobbles on a stud) so the connection goes from good to non-existent, especially with a bit of dirt/honey/wax build up on it.

highly recommend fitting an earth lead from the body to the earth leads before someone has a shocking time of it.

Hi Tristan, Eli here from Boutelje Products. I am the Electrician and have seen the machines develop from my time as an apprentice with the original Electrical Contractors to running my own Electrical Company who now managers the Boutelje Products contract.

Pete has made me aware of your post which I am appreciative of.
First of all, thank you for your support of our products and your comments on the machines. These posts allow us to continue refining and building better products.

Regarding your concerns of the Earth Bond on the Extractors, I tend to disagree with your interpretation of the Wiring Rules. I cannot say whether you tested the Earth Continuity correctly or not, however we do test the bonding to all aspects of the machine as per the regulations and inline with the Boutelje Standards.

Please see the attached screen shot of

AS/NZS 4024.1204:2019 : Safety Of Machinery - Electrical Equipment of Machines : 8.2.1 Protective bonding circuit. ​

​

It is my interpretation of the rules that the extractor, where required is Bonded - This would primarily concern the motor terminals and access to the live parts within the terminal housing, of course all conductive parts which are related to these connections are Bonded and are part of the earthing system. We test the continuity between all exposed metal parts to 0.5 Ohm.

It is great that you have taken the time to work on your machine, and make it best suited to your plant. I do suggest making Boutelje Products aware of any issues you may have, This way we can handle them accordingly.
If you wish, you can purchase the above mentioned standard from Standards NZ for $134. Otherwise, please feel free to contact me any time.

Kind Regards,
Eli
Integrated Electrical Ltd
0225225012
Info@integratedelectrical.co.nz

​

​

 

[StephenB]

Hi Tristan, Eli here from Boutelje Products. I am the Electrician and have seen the machines develop from my time as an apprentice with the original Electrical Contractors to running my own Electrical Company who now managers the Boutelje Products contract.

Pete has made me aware of your post which I am appreciative of.
First of all, thank you for your support of our products and your comments on the machines. These posts allow us to continue refining and building better products.

Regarding your concerns of the Earth Bond on the Extractors, I tend to disagree with your interpretation of the Wiring Rules. I cannot say whether you tested the Earth Continuity correctly or not, however we do test the bonding to all aspects of the machine as per the regulations and inline with the Boutelje Standards.

Please see the attached screen shot of

AS/NZS 4024.1204:2019 : Safety Of Machinery - Electrical Equipment of Machines : 8.2.1 Protective bonding circuit. ​

​

It is my interpretation of the rules that the extractor, where required is Bonded - This would primarily concern the motor terminals and access to the live parts within the terminal housing, of course all conductive parts which are related to these connections are Bonded and are part of the earthing system. We test the continuity between all exposed metal parts to 0.5 Ohm.

It is great that you have taken the time to work on your machine, and make it best suited to your plant. I do suggest making Boutelje Products aware of any issues you may have, This way we can handle them accordingly.
If you wish, you can purchase the above mentioned standard from Standards NZ for $134. Otherwise, please feel free to contact me any time.

Kind Regards,
Eli
Integrated Electrical Ltd
0225225012
Info@integratedelectrical.co.nz

​

​

As an Electrical inspector who specializes in hazardous area electrical installations, based on what has been written here I have to agree with you

 

[Hermann]

Tristan your comments appear to be defamatory and I am surprised the NZ Beekeepers Forum would allow you to keep posting such damaging and inaccurate material, given their stated policies that defamation is unacceptable. Continuing this, and a refusal to withdraw your accusations and to apologise may lead to legal action against you.

 

[Grant]

You're sort of at the point of how many times do you have to be told not to do what your doing. Simply for safety reasons if nothing else. If something goes wrong with it now and it kills a member of your staff, who would be to blame?

"The boss played with it against electrical safety advice, the advice of the manufacturers own electrician, the wiring rules and an electrical inspector". You sort of can't come back from that.

But yet you come back with a list of design complaints including ranting about pneumatics to the poor guy (an electrician) who is offering you good safety advice of working with the manufacturer to fix your issues so you don't get caught out by a dangerous fix because your interpretation of the rules may be a little off. Go figure.

At the very least go get your modification signed off with a new electrical safety certificate.